Sewing its way through the Missed Connections
section on the Washington, D.C., Craigslist is an interesting thread which
embodies several poignant issues at play in the gay community. The setting is
local, but the themes are universal.
The brouhaha starts with
an aborted bathroom rendezvous of sorts at the Duplex
Diner, a neighborhood hangout whose clientele skews
heavily gay male. But
at the heart of the matter are some fairly insightful, even heartfelt, postings
about gay culture.
As background for the
non-locals, the Duplex Diner is a bit of a Washington institution. The place has
a loyal customer base in a convenient gayborhood location. Its basic but good
diner fare (go Tater Tots!) and strong drinks are served by friendly wait staff,
most of whom have worked there for years. In the spirit of full disclosure, I
should say that I'm "a regular" there.
Despite what some
critics on the Craigslist thread say, Eric Hirshfield, the
proprietor, has achieved restaurant success of the highest order: The diner has
a bustling atmosphere, and people have a good time. There's a mysterious and rare alchemy involved in creating a dining space that
stays popular week after week for eight years. In short,
it's the kind of place most restaurateurs would kill to have, but few do.
To my mind,
the diner is a comfortable place for people of all ages. And it's casual, so you
can go there directly from the office or from your kickball game. It doesn't
much matter what you wear.
Or does it? Here's where the
Craigslist drama kicks in: Some people have their 2xists in a bunch
over older men wearing Abercrombie. And so ensues a spate of people
spilling their guts in Craigslist's Missed Connections on a
range of issues, including:
-- Young gays hating on
old gays
-- Old gays hating on young gays (though clearly not as
much)
-- The general practice of gays judging gays
-- The
general dilemma of feeling judged
-- Amateur fashion critics, and an
attempt to identify the elusive age after which one should cease sporting
anything by Abercrombie & Fitch.
Aging is something
I think about more and more -- since it's happening to me. But then,
it's happening to us all, right? There's almost an out-of-body-ness to
seeing yourself get older. Recently, I've been referred to as "a daddy" by a
couple of people. When blogger Joe.My.God.
posted a (super sweet) comment about me on my MySpace page,
"Kenneth is the Hot Daddy Bomb Diggity," I was flattered, but taken slightly
aback. I think of myself as being attracted to daddies -- not being
one. I don't know when exactly this happened,
but all a sudden it seems as though I'm becoming my daddy.
Weird.
The truth is, if I take a good look in the mirror,
see the graying temples head of hair, and
wrinkles laugh lines, the only honest response is,
"But ya are, Blanche, ya are." This process makes me wonder when I'll start
becoming invisible to the younger gays, if I'm not already.
It also makes me wonder why age discrimination is so
entrenched in our community. Don't we gays face rejection enough from
the outside world? What exactly is so icky about older guys? As a young gay, I
never bought into that or felt that way. My unscholarly guess is that we're all
afraid of becoming that older guy, and that fear of aging, of being less
desirable because of waning youth, freaks the hell out of the Peter Pan that
seems to exist in most gay men.
To be fair, I have heard men
my age reveal their disdain for young "kids" and the places they hang out.
Again, I don't get it. All of us have things to share and learn from
each other. I want young guys to tell me I need to tune in to 'Kyle XY'. And no
young gay man ever was harmed by learning about the contributions of Bette Davis
and how she's partly responsible for him being the way he
is.
As far as fashion goes, I think people should wear what
makes them feel good. Why should young gays care if an older man is in
A&F? Twenty-something fans of Madonna (who turns 48 tomorrow, by the
way) don't seem to mind one whit that she dresses like an 18-year-old. Hell,
she's now designing and modeling for
H&M, one of the youngest "fashion houses" out
there.
So what's our big gay problem? Check out these
excerpts from the Craigslist thread -- or read the whole string
(from the bottom up) -- then tell me what you
think.
CRAIGSLIST, August
4-14:Re: Duplex
Diner Saturday Night - m4m - 35 - m4m - m4m - 32
OK guys.
Does anyone really like the Duplex Dinner? In my opinoin, it is a bunch of guys
in their thirties acting like they are in college again; wishing they had the
bodies they have now back then. It screams tragedy. It makes me so sad.
Re: Re: Duplex Diner Saturday Night - - m4m -
24
Yes, I have to agree. It's like the college bar for washed
up older men. I think you were being *kind* when you said thirties...I was
thinking most of those A&F wannabe trolls are in their 40's if not 50's.
Oh well, I guess they need a place to go too.
Re:
Duplex Diner - m4m
There is nothing wrong with older gay men
being out at a bar with everyone else (shouldn't have to be said) but there is
always something wrong (women, men, straight, gay) with people dressing
inappropriately for their age. It comes across desparate and insecure. It
shouldn't be so hard to dress well when a gay guy over 38 (this number varies)
goes out. Leave the tight sleevless t-shirts at home and wear a tailored
collared shirt and some well-fitting pants or jeans instead. Believe me, an
older guy that knows how to dress is sexy, not an older guy who is desparate.
Give it a try, let me know what happens.
Duplex
diner people just chill - m4m - 42
There is no reason that I,
a gay manof means over 40, cannot dress in current styles. There is no reason
that I, a self assured very fit manover the age of 40, cannot wear a sleeveless
shirt that shows off my 16" biceps. The amount of work I put into them gives me
that license. The way that youboys in your 20s are treating us "old" guysis
shameful ...It isbecause my generation (and the older guys that are still around
in the next generation) had the courage to be OUT withfamily, work, and others
that the process of YOU coming out has been much easier. You should be thanking
us, not dissing us.
Re: Duplexdiner people just
chill - m4m - 42 - m4m - 23
Honey, you can wear whatever you
want, sleeveless t-shirts included - but please realize that you look like an
a**hole. I'm 23 years old, and, Jesus, even *I* realize that the window of
opportunity for wearing A&F slammed shut years ago. You say you are a
"man of means over 40" and that you have a right to "dress in current styles" -
but, really, what *is* the current style? A&F is today's snake oil
salesman. When you walk up to that hunk o' teen meat behind the register, you
aren't purchasing a sleeveless T-shirt emblazoned with an (un)ironic "My
Boyfriend Is Out of Town." You're purchasing youth in its most cynical,
synthetic form. This is why you see only 14-year-old girls and 40-year-old gay
men shopping at the Pentagon City A&F. Sure, you have every right to
shop there, but you're fulfilling a destiny imposed on you by some marketing
firm in New York.
No one is saying your closet should be
filled only with cardigans and orthopedic shoes. But consider your persona, your
individuality, and - yes - your age before you hit the stores. And if you can't
do that, then don't be insulted when my friends and I can't help but poke fun at
you.
Bitter Duplex Haters... - m4m -
27
You all sound catty, bitter, uneducated and lame. If you
dont like an establishment, don't go.
If the fact that some
older guy was there in a A&F t-shirt turns you off from a bar for good,
I'm sure people at Duplex will never miss your company. Personally I'm amazed
people still wear stuff like that, but to each their own. Why does what someone
wears inspire so much anger in you? My guess is that you suck at life :) Who
cares!
Tuesday 15 August 2006
Abercrombie Wars: Young Gays vs. Old
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39 comments:
I always hit the Duplex when I'm in D.C. Who gives a flying f--- what other people wear? Men, just love each other. Life is too short to tear down other gay guys.
who cares.....remember all who are throwing sly comments...you will be that older guy one day..........If a person wants to wear the latest fashions...hippie gear from the 60's .........bell bottoms from the 70's...etc...thats their choice.....alot of peeps including the young ones do not look good in the latest fashions....just think how the sleeves fit...meant for a bigger arm....or the waist.....
All I am saying is give it a rest....let one be whoever they are.....at least they are doing just that...being who they are.....if they want to wear the latest or dress in polyester....thats who they are............
What pisses me off are the ones who dress in the latest or in a way they cant afford and are crying I cant pay my Visa bill to the Daddies who can do what ever the F**k they want and not ask someone to pick up the tab
As a 42 year old Gay MAN, the agism that exists in the Gay community is pathetic.
I am 42, 42, 42 and have nothing to envy any 22 year olds.
I am happy and comfortable with who I am.
I don't find 22 year olds in the least attractive.
Those are just play things not to be taken seriously.
Those shallow 22 year olds will one day be 62 and if their "looks" is all they have to fall back on they are in for a rude awakening.
The geezers who chase only after 20 year olds are just trying to recapture their lost youth and no matter how many 22 year olds they do they will still be the same age.
F*** A&F just give me a ripe Construction worker off the job site, they are real men
You probably won't believe this, but when I followed the link to your MySpace page, the banner ad at top was from the National Fatherhood Initiative. The first thing I saw when looking at the page was, "Have you been a dad today?"
It's not that there's anything wrong with being old and gay it's that most older gay men are, well, chicken hawks!
The younger you are the more likely they'll swarm to hit on you. I can understand going for the younger look and all but jeez if you're 44 maybe you have some issue that compels you to hit on 18yo's. Just look at the best selling porn videos: young, 12 year old twinks. What icon of gay youth gets held up to the light more? The teenage looking kid with the blond highlights.
If you're 44 that's great, congratulations for getting there without getting AIDS or arrested for cruising at pentagon city mall, but for the sake of decency and general good manners, don't come hitting on 20 something’s trying to act like you're "one of us" because you're not.
The comments from your fellow patrons debating the sartorial choices of each other smacks the S&M mentality. S&M being Stand and Model. I'm confused about the Abercrombe thing. I recall they were purveyors and perpetrators of the "Yuppie" look back in the 80's. Sweaters, pastels and docksiders. Is that what they wear there? Next they'll be bringing back those cheesy Members Only jackets.
"So what is our big gay problem?" I can speak from my own experiences, the accumulation of nearly 49 years of life, over half as an out Gay man.
I think that a great deal of Gay men are judgemental to the point of being bigots. The evidence is everywhere. In the Castro there is only one bar that welcomes African Americans and there are Clubs that cater only to Asian twinks, Leathermen, Levi & Boots guys, Drag Queens etc. And lets not forget the Lesbians. I've seen this stuff in every Gay Community I've lived in or visited. We bemoan the decline of Community while finding humor in dishing and reading each other. I've always heard that it is "what we do" but it is actually a nasty defense mechanism Gay men have raised to high art.
I'm reminded of a redhead I was involved with in the early 80's. He was adamantly against Ghettoization. He lamented a life of only living in the confines of Hillcrest or West Hollywood or the Castro. Funny though, he had favorite haunts where he'd been going before they became Gay meccas and he did exactly the same as so many others. I think the root of the problem is an underlying insecurity fostered by a "life as cruise" mentality.
This topic is excellent but can't be well addressed in a Comment space. I'll fess up to something before I sign off. I pretty much fit the old Castro Clone/South of Market Leather clone as far as appearance. It is timeless, I don't have to bother wondering if I'm in or out. I dress for me,
This is a symptom of a much bigger problem, which is: every generation of gay people has been largely out of touch with the generation that came before them. I'm aware of this, but I'm one of the lucky ones; one of the first people I told when I realized that I was gay was a lesbian couple of my parents' generation that I met at a community theatre. They quickly became my "adoptive lesbian moms," and have given to me access a lot of wisdom, a sense (and love) of gay history, and a healthy respect for those who towed a hard road before me.
When gay kids come out, even today, they do so in isolation. They find community with those like them: kids around their own age, typically of the same race, even more typically within their own socio-economic class, and almost always of their own gender. We're one of the most diverse minorities in America, but you'd never know it if you only looked at us one clique at a time.
I'm very grateful for whatever allowed me to cross paths with my adoptive lesbian moms (and the many "gay uncles" that followed), and only wish that others shared my experience.
EP in DC
PS ... if men in their 40s with 16" biceps hang around the Duplex Diner with sleeveless T-shirts on a regular basis, I might have to stop by more often. Yum ...
But isn't the whole of the DC gay scene kind of uber-bitchy? It's sort of tired as a city. I love the parties here where there are bears and trannies and twinks and artists and everyone can just get down and have fun.
leweslips1: You have to know this totally made my day!
"You probably won't believe this, but when I followed the link to your MySpace page, the banner ad at top was from the National Fatherhood Initiative. The first thing I saw when looking at the page was, "Have you been a dad today?""
note to : skywardxplosions --
Contrary to what you might think, not all older guys are into 18 year olds.
I've always been attracted to men over 35, and am even more so now that I'm part of that age group. Older guys are way more interesting, and they don't orgasm the minute you pull their underwear down.
Have a good one.
We're not ALL bitches, manhattanoffendr. Come on down and we'll show you a good time.
Regarding ageism amongst gays. Obviously, we're all getting older. We all need to be loved, felt a part of a larger community and not be fighting among ourselves
(there's enough hate in the world, don't you agree). The warmth of another human being is what makes us human . . . be they young or old.
Just remember everyone. You may be 25 years old now. But when you are 60, just remember how you treated older gays when you were young. The same thing may happen to you. Youth is a VERY SHORT TIME IN YOUR LIFE. Get over your looks and try to remember what is important.
WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND
Is is human nature to try to distance oneself from what one fears. One of the conspicuous ways to do this is to show contempt for that which one considers "other." The problem with aging, is that those who are now young will age and become the "other" that they fear and disdain (if they are lucky enough to live that long). I have been involved in caregiving for the senior community in my city and see these people denegrated by many who fear their own fate as reflected in these older faces. I actually don't care how other people dress. But I think the key to this issue is acceptance: acceptance of those who are different from ourselves, acceptance of oneself at any age, and acceptance that aging is part of the human condition. When we deride seniors we are only showing our fear of what we are on our way to becoming. Shouldn't it be important to care for others if we ourselves wish to be cared for in the future.
It's anthropological. Whether your orientation is toward same or opposite gender, as a male you have an ingrained instinctual draw toward youth. It's a fitness mechanism shared by pretty much all animals on the planet, and it exists on an ancient and subconscious level so the fact that a gay male isn't looking for childbearing capacity in a partner is irrelevent. The draw toward youth is, of course, heavily reinforced in our culture as well.
We overcome our instinctual urges all the time, because we have a complex brain and live in a complex culture.... but biology is slow to change, and from a strictly evolutionary point of view, men look for reproductive fitness on a physical level as women look for reproductive fitness on a resource level. Then we get over it.
JW
Seattle
My God boys, its only clothing, as a gay 54 year old man, i have to say, i have always strived to look my best, if i have an a@f tee, that goes well with an over-shirt, i will throw it on, look in the mirror, and if i feel presentable to the world, out i go, now, saying that, i must add, i am aware that we live in a very judgmental world, and feel the pressure of not wanting to be laughed at by you younger guys, and am always aware of that also, so i do try to inflict guidelines on myself, (which totally goes againsed my grain), since i have always told myself(yes, even when i was 16 years old) that i would always wear what i wanted, f*** the rest of the world, its only material we put on our backs, and if we feel that we look good, watch out world here i come...but by the same respect i know first hand from being a gay youth what its like to be laughed at and made fun of, dont want to go there again, especially by my "own" people. So, there u have it, loosen up guys,lets stick together, and stop being so damn judgmental, believe me, lifes too short!!
Reading some of the remarks on this topic is a salutary reminder that one can be unattractive at any age.
Having gone from grey on the temples to full grey/white - I know exactly what you're talking about. But there are a few intelligent young men (the key words) who appreciate intellect at any age. And friendship and yes good hot sex with a Man - not some immitation thereof. The problem is having been gay my whole life I usually am more comfortable with younger than me - but not twinkies - I'm not opinionated, stubborn, cranky, set in my ways. I have friends of both sexes, gay and straight, who are very young and who seek out my company - we have a great time doing all sorts of things. I am very active indoors and out and have a wide variety of interests.
Not that I haven't heard, "Why are you speaking to me you old troll/fool/faggot?" And incidentally, I've been complimented on my looks compared to Kenny Rogers - not that I see the comparison.
So I shrug it off and think - "If you survive AIDS and God only knows what other diseases you may contract, and live long enough - I hope you remember, poor old fool, the words you've said and the attitude you have had". But probably not!
i dont think any man should be sleevless at a restaurant. gay, straight or whatever. it is in poor taste & offensive to most. i was brought up to respect your neighbor. nm
what is abercrombie and fitch?
nylatinstud asks, "What is Abercrombie & Fitch?"
Well, it's the old Abercrombie & Bitch that had to change its name cause too many women were shopping there, so there, bitch!!
Ok guys...quit putting out the saucer of milk and play nice! We're ALL getting older, every minute of every day. It WILL happen to you, too! And what we do with our lives while we age, and when we age, is what's really important. I know some great older gay men and lesbians, making a big difference out there every day. So hopefully, you'll grow up and be able to do something worthwhile, too.
THE FUNNY STORY IS STR8 PARENTS BUYING THEIR KIDS A&F CLOTHES KNOWING IS GAY ASPIRED......WHO'S FOOLING WHO. MEN OVER 40 WEARING A&F CLOTHES? WHY NOT? AS LONG AS THEIR SHORTS/PANTS IS NOT FALLING FROM THEIR ASS.......AND/OR TEE SHIRTS WITH A BEER BELLY. IF YOU HAVE THE LOOKS AND IN GREAT SHAPE......MORE POWER TO YOU. btw: (MY OPINION....ANY GUY WHO WEARS a&f IS BI/GAY.
Both are ugly and must cover thier faces like what the Taliban women uses when out in the street. The older gay man would benifit from it since not only covers his face but his thining hair as well. On the other hand, the younger gay man would also benifit from it since he never have to pluck or wax his eyebrows. OMG> this is too gay. Old gays + young gays = faggots no matter how you look at it.
LETS SEE......I'M 5.9 155LBS 32 WAIST GYM RAT 42YEARS......16BICEPS......WEARING a&f CLOTHES. damn, I LOOK HOT!
SMILE!
the young gay off today have no respect for older gays.in our day we respected all gays.show u how they are some day they will be old i hope they get it back dble to them
Who cares what another gay man, young or old wears, if it makes him feel good than god bless. Society has done enough to make us feel bad about ourselves – we don’t need the attacks by our own community. Besides, the only ones that are most likely complaining are the young, immature, superficial "Queens" - afraid that they're loosing some thunder in the clubs. Bottomline, age is just a number and you can look ridiculous in any clothing if you don't have the right body for what you are wearing; young or old. I am 37yrs old and my b/f 20 years; he's beautiful, young sexy and a hottie, but by comparison - I'm the one with the 31w, 6pack, biceps and you know what - it doesn't matter because if you don't love yourself, love someone else and have them love you back you’re just another tired and empty person; gay or str8. So, you boys keep dissing the older gay and keep being shallow - "News-Flash" someday you will be older and hopefully not alone with your A&F - grow-up kids.
WHY should anyone care what someone else is wearing ? Good grief people get a life Some pathetic people arent happy unless theyre running someone down As far as the age thing --i think some younger gays run older gays down out of fear of getting older themselves --some older gays run young guys down out of jealousy ive watched this same crap go on ever since i came out in 72 ---same silly BS ---grow up folks Line and let live already
In the year, 2006, if you are an "old gay man" then you get to wear whatever you damn please. And leave Bette Davis out of this, she is the most gifted actor that ever lived.
gay man over 40
I would just like to say that if a man looks good wearing something from A&F even if he's 60 then so be it! Personally, I think most guys in their 20's are boring and pretentious anyway and don't really know the first thing about what is cool or what isn't. To me being cool or in is having self confidence with yourself and wearing whatever you like wearing wether or not it is cool to a 20 something. Who really cares what anyone thinks. Believe me your 20's will fly by and before you know it you will be wearing something you like that others will think is "tragic" la de da da
who frickin pays the price of those clone clothes
The ones always playing the games are the "young ones". Man dont they think they are something. What you got? Looks..Those will fade real fast!!! Why dont you try to being nice..your not all that , but thinking so will buy you a ticket to lonelyville...If you dont have a conscience then you got nothing people!!
Live and let live guys! Personally, I've never thought that being in your 30's or 40's is "old".
I know in some pretensious, superficial gay "scenes" that gay life is suppposedly over after 30.
That is by far THE MOST ridiculous thing I have ever heard! NEWS FLASH " gay life" will continue as long as you are still living no matter what your age.. . 20's are only a brief and beginning period on your journey through this thing we call "life "so the statements about men being washed up at 30 , 40 ,or 50 is obviously made by a couple of of unobservant guys without a clue. Look around and really open your eyes and you will see the most men over 30 look like a man should...built, sexy,and better than ever! Contrary to popular belief, not everyone is into children.
Dum!!!!!!!!!!!!Borin!!!!!!!!!!!!contact at EeyorTigger5@aol.com
Why is the gay community so judgemental of each other? Don't we get enough of that from the "normal" people? So I don't dress the way you think I should. I'm not attracted to the age group you think I should be. I don't hang out in the places you think I should. I go where I want to go. I have the body to dress the way I want and to attract the guys I want to attract. Stop trying to make me fit your mold of who an older gay guy is supposed to be.
I am a 52 year old gay man. I have spent my life trying void anything that would make me look ludicrous. I find that I look best and get the best results from wearing a button-down Polo, or un-logoed gap shirt and basic, medium cut jeans. Basically, it is the same outfit I would have worn in highschool , or the disco days at Studio. Always seems to be age and income appropriat.
What is harder to accept is that after a certain age we become "invisible" to most folk under 40. As a relatively good-looking, affluent man over 50,I would be a hot comodity in the straight world. In gay life, I am accepted as an attractive older man, but not a sexual being. Recently I was hit upon by a good looking, well-endowed guy of 26. He said he liked "older men". I took it as kind of an insult, just as if I liked him only because he was 26. Kind of demeaning.
Last weekend I went out as I did 20 years ago-- to every bar in town. I ended up at the local leather bar. I must admit I felt a bit anachronistic, even though I was not the oldist , by far. Maybe my little old-man preppy outfit does not go everywhere.
I am a 52 year old gay man. I have spent my life trying void anything that would make me look ludicrous. I find that I look best and get the best results from wearing a button-down Polo, or un-logoed gap shirt and basic, medium cut jeans. Basically, it is the same outfit I would have worn in highschool , or the disco days at Studio. Always seems to be age and income appropriat.
What is harder to accept is that after a certain age we become "invisible" to most folk under 40. As a relatively good-looking, affluent man over 50,I would be a hot comodity in the straight world. In gay life, I am accepted as an attractive older man, but not a sexual being. Recently I was hit upon by a good looking, well-endowed guy of 26. He said he liked "older men". I took it as kind of an insult, just as if I liked him only because he was 26. Kind of demeaning.
Last weekend I went out as I did 20 years ago-- to every bar in town. I ended up at the local leather bar. I must admit I felt a bit anachronistic, even though I was not the oldist , by far. Maybe my little old-man preppy outfit does not go everywhere.
I think people hould wear what they want wear. If you think A&F is the style and like the clothes line; I don't see anything wrong with wearing it. I'm sure thousands of people feel the same way. If you don't like it, keep the comments to yourself. I can't even believe someone could make this an issue.
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